Ground Up Strength

I noticed this post today on Rosstraing:

http://rosstraining.com/blog/2009/03/11/the-form-police/

I actually agree with much of what is said here. The dumbell rows with 300 pounds is very impressive. No doubt about it. And, frankly, I think the form used is about the only way to get that done. I'm actually impressed that he didn't use even more torso rotation.

But I think Ross may be missing something. He says that nobody cares what the "form police" think. He also says that certain individuals may do things for reason we don't understand..

So this leaves me to wonder if he is missing something. Who cares goes both ways. My question is WHO CARES if one guy does very heavy dumbell rows this way? Who cares how much any one great competitor rows and how he does it. It's impressive, it's entertaining, but is it worth a rant? Will I or my trainees get the same results from this that Kroc does? Is there a point to any of this?

It's been my experience that the 'form police' are usually jealous or trying to discredit your lift. Neither of which is constructive or helpful.

There's nothing wrong with criticising someone's form, so long as it is needed. Some movements are just plain dangerous if not performed correctly and some movements can be improved with a couple of pointers or cues.

I see the need for a rant on form in general, learning the lifts, using proper weights, etc (mainly because I did one on the blog already haha) but I don't see the need for a rant about a couple people saying the Kroc rows were done with poor form.

And yes, they were impressive, and no, I don't think that row could have been done any better. There was nothing dangerous or wrong with what he did.

Well there is certainly something wrong, in my book, with using a whole lot of torso rotation to do a uni row. But again he's one individual doing a big weight.

I might say, 'impressive, but I'm not going to do rows that way and I wouldn't recommend it in general'. Now, would that subject me to a rant as the 'form police'. I should hope not.

Frankly I don't see the point of posting the video and making a big deal out of a damn row, lol. It's a display of strength. Maybe it has some impact in general and maybe there is a lot of coincidence going on. Anecdotal evidence from one lifter does not prove much. It may point to directions to take our inquiries but this one row means nothing. Would doing rows like that "benefit" most trainees? No, I think not. Could it be considered bad form? Yes, I think so. Personally, I like to post things that have a benefit for the people I am trying to help. I don't mind patting someone on the back once in a while but I had just as soon do that after a display of excellent technique as I would for throwing heavy weights around. Or for a hard won improvement.

Another little point. If you don't want all sorts of people to come out of the woodwork and say what they think…don't post on the internet.

I swear if I see this video presented as "evidence" or something or other one more time, I will go on an alcoholic binge.

This kind of thing is an example of faulty thinking that humans routinely engage in, even when they have experience to know better.

Lots, and lots of people have broken through bench press problems by simply recognizing the importance of back work of all kinds. This work has and will take all kinds of shapes. But the prob is that out of the hundreds of people saying they did rows, this and that and there benching improved what we will remember is the more theatrical examples. The extreme ones.

But before I go on, one thing has to be remembered: It is very difficult to make a correct causal inference about how and exercise from another class of movements impacts a lift. There are just too many things going on in training, recover, etc. at any one time to make these inferences, which are difficult even in a 'scientific' setting.

Get 10 guys doing all sorts of rows with good technique and one doing "dynamic rows" from the floor or some such thing…you remember the dynamic rows. Likewise this video out of hundreds of row videos would be remembered even if Kroc weren't well known. What is evidence of something tends to be what is readily available to memory.

I guarantee you that if you watched a bunch of lifters doing a snatch of the same weight…the one who screamed and danced and psyched himself up and basically "looked" like he was lifting more would stick more than all the others. Later on this would become "evidence" that screaming and dancing before a lift made you stronger. Which may be true, at least for some, but that ain't evidence.

You gotta think about training a bit dispassionately. I myself am not "passionate" about my training, I am passionate about my results. Do you see the difference there? I am passionate about learning but when it comes to training it is the results. I don't get precious about how I get a PR, only about the PR itself! This way I can view the process in a non-subjective way allowing me to more accurately gauge it's benefits and drawbacks. I do the same thing with the people I help.

One thing I've learned though lots of trial, error and PAIN is that many times the long term drawbacks outweigh the short term benefits.

And I am beginning to believe that this is the problem with all the 'experts' who scream and shout any time their views are challenged. It's about them instead of the results they get.

If it's just about being impressive..well, this kind of thing, personally is more impressive to me:

Steve for the win! again…lol

LOL, yeah, I just go to him anytime I want something that is impressive. The torso control is amazing. Just try one of those without any weight and you will see why people love the slingy rows. They figure they can do it and still be lazy in their training, lol.

As I could have predicted, not telling people what they want to hear results in them bouncing right on out without reading a thing. Someone found this post through google and not surprisingly, spend about 0 minutes here.

When someone is looking for information on exercises, usually what they want to hear is that this exercise is the BIG SECRET they've been waiting for. And what they got here is that Kroc rows just may not be some miracle.

I could easily attract many many readers by giving them simple answers to everything and telling them what they want to hear. Giving them the 'secrets' they've been waiting for. Hell..most of the highly successful T-Nation authors are successful for just that. Giving out a new miracle program every month on schedule so that a bunch of hapless newbs can go "This is JUST what I've been WAITING for".

OK so I'll do it. I'll give away a SECRET.

You probably will never deadlift like Andy Bolton even if you train right beside him and mimic his every move. What am I saying? Probably? Certainly is more like it. Unless your Andy Bolton reading this or one of a very few exceptional individuals. And even if you are one of those exceptional individuals doing exactly what Andy does like some kind of monkey ain't going to work. But if you were one of those exceptional individuals you probably wouldn't be here looking for answers. So maybe you should think about what is being said here before bouncing off to the next bullshit website that is ready to sell you the bill of goods you are so eagerly wishing for.

Why could this be bad for you? The kind of twisting and shearing forces, centered on either the thoracic or lumbar are exactly the kinds of forces your spine was not built to absorb. You'd do better to spend your time working on anti-rotation that torso rotation with a heavy dumbbell to sling around.

However, more likely it is the tendency to use more weight than a person's shoulders can handle that would lead to injury. However, I really don't care about whether Kroc rows are bad or good for you as the purpose of this thread is to rant about bad thinking and bad "evidence" not bad form. If it makes you feel like a big man to "sling" a dumbbell rather than row it..go for it.

Well put, sir. I remember when I used to follow Chad Waterbury and his 1000000000 articles..LAWL….

To the guy at "Men's Health" who linked to this thread "search for evidence that Kroc rows are bad for you"…thanks for the traffic, dude! And next time be a man and say what you think. Passive aggressive attacks are for babies.